[00:00:05] Welcome to B2B Sales Trends, the podcast dedicated to sales leaders in the B2B space, where we share conversations about innovative and successful sales transformations to keep you up to date on the latest trends. This podcast is brought to you by Global Performance Group. Welcome to yet another fabulous episode of the B2B Sales Trends, the show that brings you hacks, tips, thought leadership for sales, marketing and customer success.
[00:00:35] It's brought to you by Global Performance Group, a revenue improvement boutique that implements behavior change to provide salespeople and sales managers the competence, confidence and courage to sell and negotiate based on customer outcomes. We solve three problems for our customers, which is we're increasing their win rates, we are reducing their sales cycle and we're protecting their margins.
[00:01:02] My name is Harry Kendallbacher, I'm the CEO of the company and today I have with me Ian Grace. Ian is the VP of Sales for Oculus. Welcome to the B2B Sales Trends podcast, Ian. Thanks, Harry. It's a pleasure to be here today. As a form of introduction, share a little bit about yourself, your organization, your current role, if you would. That would be fabulous.
[00:01:27] Yeah, sure. So as you mentioned, I'm VP of Sales for Oculus. We are a data automation company. We're based out of New York City. And what we do is help, you know, effectively, you know, I would say lenders, but anybody that's making sort of financial decisions is probably a better way of saying it. Anybody that's making high stakes lending or financial decisions, we help them do that quicker, faster, more efficiently. Right.
[00:01:50] So, you know, whether it's bank statements, tax forms, you're a mortgage lender, small business lender, consumer lender, you know, property management company, anybody that's taking in financial documents to make a decision off of. We're going to help you make that a lot faster, a lot better, you know, and a lot more accurately. Fabulous. That's a great, great service and solution for those lenders.
[00:02:14] Ian, when we, a couple of weeks ago, we've had our sort of pre-call for the podcast where we identify the topic. And you were very keen on the idea of coaching and coaching salespeople. And you branded a term which I really liked, which was coachability. Share with the audience, if you would, what does it mean?
[00:02:42] What does it mean to the salesperson or the coachee in this case? Yeah, I mean, I would say, Harry, I've been in sales for like 23 years now, managing and or leading teams for almost 17 of that time. And I think whether it comes to myself, you know, because I still try to maintain coachability even in a day to day for myself or my son, who's 10 years old. Right. You know, trying to instill that understanding of what it is to be coachable.
[00:03:11] Right. So to me, what it is to be coachable is, you know, being open and willing to receive feedback. That's kind of step one. Right. It kind of the analogy, like kind of open palms. Right. I come to you with open palms. Help me. Right. Like, so I'm open to the feedback. I don't get defensive to the feedback. I want the feedback. Right. That to me is being coachable.
[00:03:34] But then furthermore, this is really where the rubber meets the road is if I come to you, Harry, and let's say I'm your CRO for global performance and I say, all right, I'd like some, you know, feedback and coaching. And you give that to me. Great. It's one thing for me to say, OK, first off, I should say thank you. Right. You know, any feedback and coaching feedback. The first response should be thank you. I don't get defensive with what Harry says to me. I don't, you know, kind of reject what Harry says to me. I receive it with kind of open palms.
[00:04:04] But then what's the most important part? I do something with it. Right. You know, coaching and feedback is a gift. Right. And I feel like, you know, it's one thing people could say all the time that they're coachable. But what they interpret to mean coachable is that they'll listen to somebody, give them feedback. However, they take the next step to implement that feedback. That's the key part of this. It's kind of two steps.
[00:04:31] It's willingness and openness and desire to receive the feedback, but then taking the step to implement the feedback. I mean, I always think of it like in analogies and, you know, coaching and feedback is like a gift. Right. It's like a nice bright yellow box with a big red, yellow, big red ribbon on it that I hand to to Harry and say, Harry, here's feedback. If you take the feedback or you take the yellow box with the red ribbon on it and you open the box.
[00:05:00] Right. You're doing something with the feedback. If you don't, you're walking it over to the window, opening the window and throwing my gift out the window right in front of me. Right. Like. Right. So that's how I look at it, because truly for me to do nothing with the feedback that you've given me, that's what I'm doing. I'm rejecting. I'm throwing away the gift that you gave me. So that's what to be coachable means to me.
[00:05:26] I really like the idea because, you know, we always say it's it's it's it's not about the knowledge you gain or absorb. It's really about the knowledge you apply and use and do and make a change in it. So that's that's that resonates with me a lot. What does it mean coachability for the actual coach?
[00:05:49] Yeah, I mean, I think to me as as somebody that like, you know, I thrive on coachability myself. Like I'm being you know, I I want that same feedback. So I think it also flows both ways. Right. So, you know, whether if I'm giving one of my reps feedback and coaching, I equally want them to give me feedback and coaching. Right. It's it's that's the two way street of trust.
[00:06:18] And vulnerability. I mean, I think that that's the key to any sales leadership. Any leadership in general is your ability to be open minded yourself and open to feedback and and kind of, you know, vulnerable, I guess, and humble enough to to receive that feedback. So to me, it's equally as important that I receive that feedback and coachability upward and that I show that to them.
[00:06:43] That same thing that I'm looking for in them, I would I want to give them right. I mean, my core values are consistency and authenticity. And I think, you know, for me to live those core values, it would be hypocritical for me to not be open to that coaching myself or to do anything with it also. Right. What about so when you think about your, you know, your active coaching process that you have with your salespeople?
[00:07:15] Is there. OK, so let me rephrase that we've we work with a lot of organization where we implement our sales methodology and part of any behavior change process is always the inclusion of coaches because or their managers, should I say, because there is no behavior change.
[00:07:38] If you just train salespeople, you really need the coaches to understand the methodology themselves and then give them the tools and behaviors to coach their salespeople effectively. Now, I always know always a lot of the times I hear from our clients. Oh, you know, two years ago we gave our managers coaching skills, but it hasn't really worked.
[00:08:01] Now, my response to that typically is, well, if you give them just coaching skills, the gap then typically is they don't know what to coach to. So they don't have the methodology, for example, that their salespeople acquire. They don't know what to coach to.
[00:08:21] Is that is that important within the coaching process that you don't just have coaching skills, but you also need to coach to a method, a planning methodology or, you know, or client or objectives. Share your experience with that with the audience, if you would. Yeah, no, I would. Of course, I think, Harry, otherwise you're, you know, a Harvard medical school trained doctor. Right.
[00:08:50] And I'm just treating everything that you have or instead of the thing that you need. Right. You know, if I'm coming at you and I'm, you know, I'm giving you all these antibiotics and this and the other thing, but you need chemotherapy for lung cancer. I'm treating all these other things, but not the thing that you need. Right. So having skills is step one, being able to diagnose, understand, you know, what what that salesperson needs and then go specifically to that, I think is important.
[00:09:19] I think, you know, for me, a lot of I've, you know, in my career, I've used a lot of like SBIR situation, behavior impact reaction, that sort of thing. I think that that's that's a simple one that's, you know, that helps me sort of formulate things, you know, you know, what what they talk about, you know, in no rules rules, you know, start, stop, continue. Right. You know, those that's another methodology I like to use when I'm when I'm giving feedback.
[00:09:47] But first and foremost, it's like, I think as a leader, you have to be actively listening and understanding and paying attention to see what it is that is going awry so that you're not just giving. I think there's a difference to Harry, I'll say it this way. There's a difference between feedback and the and actionable feedback. Right. Right. I could just give somebody sort of feedback and it's great and it's constructive, whatever I mean.
[00:10:15] Well, but if I don't give them actionable feedback, something that they can actually do something with, take away from the conversation, apply to the next encounter, then I'm not really doing my job. So I think that that's also a line in the sand, too, that you have to acknowledge, like, is, you know, am I good at giving feedback? OK. Am I good at giving actionable feedback? That's the real that's the real rubber meets the road for me. Right. Share with the audience what you mean by start, stop, continue.
[00:10:45] Yeah. So start, stop, continue. I picked up, you know, I think was what Reed Hastings wrote No Rules Rules with a co-author. But, you know, about the time at building Netflix. Right. You know, that was one of the big takeaways I took from that book. So basically it's where you, you know, kind of formulate and structure your feedback by saying so, for example, I might say, you know, Harry, start doing more of this. Right. You know, you know, stop doing this.
[00:11:13] This is this is hurting you. This is help hurting your development. This is hurting your team. This is hurting your productivity, whatever it is. And then lastly, I'll say, continue. Hey, you're doing a really good job with this. This is good. You should continue to do this because it is helping. But it's just framing your feedback in a way of like the person is not doing enough of this. That would be start. They're doing too much, you know, of this. If it's a bad, certainly a bad thing, you want to tell them to stop doing that.
[00:11:39] And if it's, you know, the last thing, because it's the easiest, you want to give it sort of last and leave it, you know, on a positive note, you know, it's kind of the continue. Hey, you're doing a great job with this, Harry, you know, continue to do this. And I find that very simple. I use that very often when I'm doing my mid-year and annual reviews and things like that. Just it's a nice framework that I found to give that feedback. Great. Good, good, good insight here.
[00:12:07] How about the timing for coaching? Is there a perfect timing? How often should you do it? What's the frequency? What's your opinion on that? To me, I mean, I think immediate is always good.
[00:12:26] If I'm on a sales call with one of the team and I observe something that warrants certainly feedback, when we're doing our debriefing conversation, which typically follows that call, even if it's for five minutes, you know, I'm going to give them the feedback immediately. Right. Right. Proximity to the to the behavior you're trying to change is really important. Right.
[00:12:54] So, you know, letting it go by and and and kind of backburnering tough conversations doesn't do them any justice. You want to you know, it's you want to show them sort of human conditioning. You just did this and I'm telling you now you need to do this, this or this to to be better. So I find proximity is good.
[00:13:11] You know, and then in general, I think, you know, on a weekly basis, you know, if there's things coming up or things that consistent things, obviously, that always, you know, one on ones is an opportune time to share feedback. But I think there's no better time than like immediately. If I if I sort of see something, say something. Well, if I see something, I'm going to say something. I owe it. Right.
[00:13:37] In our methodology, in our coaching methodology, we always talk about the the identification of coaching moments throughout the sales process. So what are those moments where you can really take the opportunity to to coach that now? It may be early on. It may be later on. It may be during it. But identify them right. And and that that helps the right cadence get along with it. That's great. Great.
[00:14:06] Um, what are the mistakes that you've seen coaches and coaches make in terms of not to be coachables? Let's start with the coaches. What are the mistakes that you've seen coaches make for them not to be good coaches? I think the you know, the the biggest mistakes is one of two extremes. Right. So like Kim Scott talks about this in Radical Candor. Right. Like it's either that sort of ruinous empathy.
[00:14:35] Like I am too soft and I don't give you the feedback and I don't share that feedback. You know, I mean, well, and I like you, but I because of that, I don't give you that feedback. Right. Like so you just continue to do the things that are not helping you be successful as opposed to, you know, you know, giving you the feedback. The other end of that spectrum, that sort of obnoxious aggression side. Right.
[00:15:01] Where you just sort of blasting people and you're not having, you know, your delivery is not coming from a place of of love and care and, you know, wanting them to, you know, wanting something for them, not something from them. You know, you know, I think that both ends of that spectrum are really the two biggest mistakes. Not saying enough.
[00:15:20] We're saying it too harshly, aggressively or in the wrong forum or in front of the wrong people or, you know, that sort of obnoxious aggression end of the spectrum is is probably those two things are the probably the two biggest kind of, I would say, mistakes that a coach can do. How about the coaches? What mistakes could they make? I mean, being defensive, being unwilling to receive the feedback, lacking humility and thinking, you know, I got it.
[00:15:50] I got it. I got it. It's like, oh, you got it. Then why are you 20% a quota? You got it. So you got it so good. You're at 20%. So like you, you, do you got it? I don't think you got it. Right. So, you know, lacking that humility, lacking self-awareness, objectivity, openness, being defensive. Those are to me, I think are the big sort of those are like cardinal sins. You know what I mean?
[00:16:14] I would say for anybody, like it would be a cardinal sin for me to be that way with my CRO as much as it's a cardinal sin for, you know, an SDR, you know, that's that's working, you know, with the team to not be willing to receive feedback.
[00:16:30] It's just, you have to be open to it, non-defensive and willing to like accept in here because understand that nobody's perfect and you have to have that humility to understand, you know, I can always be a little bit better tomorrow than I was today. Love it. Progress is king. Absolutely. The question, the final question I always asked at the end of each interview is not necessarily coaching related.
[00:16:57] It's about what do you think the top three behaviors or skills are that top elite salespeople have? So let's say if you want to hire some people and you are looking for three skills or behaviors that those salespeople have, what would be number one, number two, and number three in priority for you in terms of skills and behaviors that those top salespeople have?
[00:17:26] What are those top three things? I would say the ability to, you know, conversationally and not in an interrogative sort of way, you know, conduct a proper thorough deep discovery. I think that that's vital. The ability to tie what you discover from a needs perspective into a business impact, I think would be two, right? It's one thing to uncover the problem.
[00:17:55] It's another thing to tie it to an actual business impact to ensure that they sort of take action on that. And then lastly is sort of, you know, I think it's somewhat of a skill and it's also somewhat of a personality. But I think that, you know, it's really important when I'm looking for in hiring people is sort of charisma and engaging, having an engaging personality. Particularly, Harry, we live in a world today, obviously, where, you know, you're in Europe, I'm in New York, and we're in a Zoom world, right?
[00:18:25] And to be engaging, to be charismatic, to be personable and amicable and amiable and project that through a screen is even harder than it is to do in person. So I think that's definitely something that people can, you know, sharpen their samurai sword on and they should, you know, but that's certainly something that's probably a third quality that's a little bit more soft, I would say, than those first two are very hard skills.
[00:18:54] That soft skill there is just as important because if you're a robot, you're not likable, you're sort of going through the motions. People don't like that. You know, people like to buy from who they like or they enjoy being around and turning, being able to sort of flip this switch and turn it on. And, you know, I'll give you a case of point. I, a couple, a couple of SDRs that we hired that now, now one's in AE, like they were two theater majors from Northwestern, right? Wow.
[00:19:24] All right. On paper, would I ever, would an SDR, would I hire an SDR as a Northwestern theater grad? Except they're the two most successful SDRs we've ever had. They happen to be friends that went to school together a year apart. But why? Because they're actresses and they're playing the role. So when it's time and it's action, they flip the switch and they become incandescent, right?
[00:19:51] And that is what they, they, they turn it on. And I think that as salespeople, you have to be, no matter what's going on in the meeting before, no matter what's going on in your life around you, you got to be able to turn it on. And so I think that, that they're really important too. So many, many years ago, one of my, one sales manager said to me, this is my speech, what, 25 years ago now. He said to me, listen, sales is simple. You're a clown.
[00:20:19] And when the curtain falls, the clown has to smile. I don't care what happened before, what after, curtain falls, you're smiling. I'm like, okay, that's a little bit harsh, but it's the truth really, right? Thank you, Ian. I know our listeners very much appreciate your insights, your thought leadership. Thank you for taking the time. Yeah, thank you. Thank you for having me, Harry. It's been a pleasure talking with you today. For our community of listeners, my dear people, two calls to action. Share this podcast.
[00:20:48] If you think somebody would benefit from the great insights Ian shared and go to globalperformancegroup.com. Check out the global sales portal. It's for free. You can enter, it has a webinar, podcast, additional content, all in relation to selling and negotiating based on outcomes. Until the next episode, look after yourselves and happy selling. Bye-bye. Bye-bye.